Discussion:
On Teacher Accountability.
(too old to reply)
Mark S.
2009-04-14 23:01:17 UTC
Permalink
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
at:

http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm

Sincerely,

Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professor
http://irascibleprofessor.com
Herman Rubin
2009-04-15 20:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
I read the article and disagree with the reply. If we
really tried to identify the incompetent teachers by
how well they transmitted knowledge and understanding,
we would be totally at odds with the current claims
about which are competent and which are not.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
pubkeybreaker
2009-04-16 17:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
I read the article and disagree with the reply.  If we
really tried to identify the incompetent teachers by
how well they transmitted knowledge and understanding,
we would be totally at odds with the current claims
about which are competent and which are not.
I was very much in agreement with the article. And I agree partially
with the reply.
We do need to get rid of bad teachers. One very very easy way is to
get rid of those
teachers who have inadequate knowledge of the subject they are
teaching. Every 5 years
make ALL teachers take the college entrance subject exam in the
subject they teach.
If the teacher can't score at least (say) 750 (out of 800) on the
exam: kick them out.
How we measure teachers who know the subject, but don't achieve
results is a problem
that I think is unsolvable. You can't blame teachers for failing to
teach students who
are not interested in learning.

There may well be some teachers who know and understand their subject
very well,
but who have had all motivation to teach well beaten out of them by:

"They leave because they're compelled to lower their standards, water
down their curricula,
implement asinine regulations, and contend unsupported with an
onslaught of antisocial,
narcissistic behavior bordering on criminality."


They no longer put in the effort to teach well because they perceive
that such an
effort is pointless. They have too many students in their classes who
just don't
give a sh*t about learning.

Correcting the problem MUST start at home. Students whose parents
don't give a sh*t
are going to be the same way. Motivation to learn must come from
home. This is a
widespread social issue and has very little to do with the quality of
teachers who
are actually in the classrooms.
The Ranger
2009-04-16 18:04:50 UTC
Permalink
pubkeybreaker <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:9811cf8b-c122-4650-992c-***@t11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Post by pubkeybreaker
Correcting the problem MUST start at home. Students
whose parents don't give a sh*t are going to be the same way.
Motivation to learn must come from home. This is a widespread
social issue and has very little to do with the quality of teachers
who are actually in the classrooms.
Apathy is a learned trait. How would you "force" change on those parent that
"don't give a sh*t" and view the school system as a free sitter service?

The Ranger
pubkeybreaker
2009-04-16 19:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ranger
[snip]
Correcting the problem MUST start at home.  Students
whose parents don't give a sh*t are going to be the same way.
Motivation to learn must come from home.  This is a widespread
social issue and has very little to do with the quality of teachers
who are actually in the classrooms.
Apathy is a learned trait. How would you "force" change on those parent that
"don't give a sh*t" and view the school system as a free sitter service?
You CAN'T within today's political framework. I have a solution, but
it is
imperfect and VERY politically incorrect.

We need to motivate students. Perhaps we might:

(1) Not allow anyone to get a driver's licence until they proficiently
pass (say) the NY State
Regents exam (or equivalent) ?

or

(2) Make the right to vote (or any of a number of other rights)
contingent
on passing the exam? Including the right to receive welfare payments
of
any kind, right to an attorney if you are arrested, right to medical
care if you OD on smack, etc. etc.

or

(3) Take everyone who doesn't pass, declare them to be a social
parasite,
and just shoot them. -:) -:)

This will necessitate a single National level exam for all...Some
current state-level
"comprehensive" exams are a joke.

The way to motivate someone out of apathy is to make something that
they WANT
conditional upon their showing themselves adequately educated. I
would even
accept passing a trade-based exam (e.g. showing that one has enough
skill
as a plumber, bricklayer, carpenter, auto-mechanic etc. to earn a
living)
in lieu of an academic exam.
Herman Rubin
2009-04-17 00:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ranger
[snip]
Post by pubkeybreaker
Correcting the problem MUST start at home. Students
whose parents don't give a sh*t are going to be the same way.
Motivation to learn must come from home. This is a widespread
social issue and has very little to do with the quality of teachers
who are actually in the classrooms.
Apathy is a learned trait. How would you "force" change on those parent that
"don't give a sh*t" and view the school system as a free sitter service?
The Ranger
Can you expect teacher's to change the attitudes of these
children? Possibly a few, but they will need to be protected
from their "peer group".
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
2009-04-16 23:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
Rowley
2009-04-17 00:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......

Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....

Martin
pubkeybreaker
2009-04-17 11:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
It is more basic than that. It has less to do with *competent
evaluation*,
than it does with lack of good ways to even measure teacher
performance
that do not depend on factors outside their control.
Rowley
2009-04-17 11:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by pubkeybreaker
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
It is more basic than that. It has less to do with *competent
evaluation*,
than it does with lack of good ways to even measure teacher
performance
that do not depend on factors outside their control.
Things "outside their control" are still part of the process.. and as
such do need to be included as part of an evaluation (IMO)....

Martin
pubkeybreaker
2009-04-17 14:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowley
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
It is more basic than that.  It has less to do with *competent
evaluation*,
than it does with lack of good ways to even measure teacher
performance
that do not depend on factors outside their control.
Things "outside their control" are still part of the process.. and as
such do need to be included as part of an evaluation (IMO)....
Horsesh*t

Responsibility and Authority are converses of one another.
To have authority without responsibility is a recipe for disaster.
To be given responsibility without any authority is grossly unfair.

To have "things outside their control" be part of the evaluation
process
is imposing responsibility on the teacher without giving them the
authority
to act.

I have an idea!!!! Let's make teachers the equivalent of boot camp
drill instructors. If a student fails to do an assignment, make them
run in circles until they throw up; chain them to their desks
without
food and without a bathroom break until they pass the test, give them
10 lashes with a bullwhip, etc. etc. :-) :-)

Teachers can not force students to do assignments, read the textbook,
take notes, study the material, etc. etc. They are given neither the
authority nor the means to do so.

To evaluate a teacher based upon his/her failure to teach sociopaths,
drug addicts, apathetic, and just plain stupid students, without
giving
him/her the authority to PUNISH students for their failure, is just
INSANE.

The way to motivate students is to make something that they WANT
contigent
upon learning the material, {i.e. they get a reward], combined with
a
punishment that they truly don't like for their failure.
Bob LeChevalier
2009-04-17 17:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by pubkeybreaker
Post by Rowley
Things "outside their control" are still part of the process.. and as
such do need to be included as part of an evaluation (IMO)....
Horsesh*t
Responsibility and Authority are converses of one another.
To have authority without responsibility is a recipe for disaster.
To be given responsibility without any authority is grossly unfair.
Who said that they have NO authority?
Post by pubkeybreaker
To have "things outside their control" be part of the evaluation
process
is imposing responsibility on the teacher without giving them the
authority
to act.
Sorta like "life", in other words.

Do those CEOs that ran their companies into the ground get absolved of
responsibility merely because they couldn't control housing prices (or
some other variable?)

That's what being a professional means. Knowing that there are some
factors outside your control, and managing to pull off a success
anyway. That's why they get paid more than minimum wage.

Of course the evaluation should take into account that there are
factors outside the teacher's control.
Post by pubkeybreaker
Teachers can not force students to do assignments, read the textbook,
take notes, study the material, etc. etc. They are given neither the
authority nor the means to do so.
To evaluate a teacher based upon his/her failure to teach sociopaths,
drug addicts, apathetic, and just plain stupid students, without
giving him/her the authority to PUNISH students for their failure, is just
INSANE.
Given that they cannot (or will not) be given such authority, are you
in favor of absolving teachers of all responsibility to do any sort of
teaching? Why should we pay them?
Post by pubkeybreaker
The way to motivate students is to make something that they WANT contigent
upon learning the material, {i.e. they get a reward], combined with
a punishment that they truly don't like for their failure.
So you favor proposals to pay students a salary for attending school,
depriving them of that salary when they fail to do the homework, etc?

lojbab
---
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
***@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org
Herman Rubin
2009-04-17 19:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob LeChevalier
Post by pubkeybreaker
Post by Rowley
Things "outside their control" are still part of the process.. and as
such do need to be included as part of an evaluation (IMO)....
Horsesh*t
Wrong again.
Post by Bob LeChevalier
Post by pubkeybreaker
Responsibility and Authority are converses of one another.
To have authority without responsibility is a recipe for disaster.
To be given responsibility without any authority is grossly unfair.
Who said that they have NO authority?
Very little. They are expected to take a heterogeneous
bunch of kids, most of whom do not care if they learn
anything, and many of whom are not prepared for the class
being taken, and get almost all of them to achieve a
"passing" performance. They cannot kick out the ones who
are there only because they are of the appropriate age, but
have no ability. They cannot kick out those who disrupt
the class.
Post by Bob LeChevalier
Post by pubkeybreaker
To have "things outside their control" be part of the evaluation
process
is imposing responsibility on the teacher without giving them the
authority
to act.
Sorta like "life", in other words.
Do those CEOs that ran their companies into the ground get absolved of
responsibility merely because they couldn't control housing prices (or
some other variable?)
Those CEOs were doing a better job than the
Congresscritters who were supposed to run the system. A
few CEOs could have managed to guess right and get out at
the right time, or have enough foresight, like the Ford
CEO, to get a mortgage at the right time to have liquidity
in a depression. If there was no meltdown in the system,
these CEOs who did not go down would have looked bad.
Post by Bob LeChevalier
That's what being a professional means. Knowing that there are some
factors outside your control, and managing to pull off a success
anyway. That's why they get paid more than minimum wage.
But the CEO of a manufacturing company can refuse to take
substandard raw material. Teachers are required to take
all the stupes thrown at them, and be expected to teach
them what many of them cannot or will not learn.
Post by Bob LeChevalier
Of course the evaluation should take into account that there are
factors outside the teacher's control.
Post by pubkeybreaker
Teachers can not force students to do assignments, read the textbook,
take notes, study the material, etc. etc. They are given neither the
authority nor the means to do so.
To evaluate a teacher based upon his/her failure to teach sociopaths,
drug addicts, apathetic, and just plain stupid students, without
giving him/her the authority to PUNISH students for their failure, is just
INSANE.
Given that they cannot (or will not) be given such authority, are you
in favor of absolving teachers of all responsibility to do any sort of
teaching? Why should we pay them?
Who said that? They should be allowed to teach subject
matter to those ready to take that subject matter, and be
graded on how well they perform, taking into account the
quality of their students.
Post by Bob LeChevalier
Post by pubkeybreaker
The way to motivate students is to make something that they WANT contigent
upon learning the material, {i.e. they get a reward], combined with
a punishment that they truly don't like for their failure.
So you favor proposals to pay students a salary for attending school,
depriving them of that salary when they fail to do the homework, etc?
Not for not doing the homework; homework should be for
learning, not grading. But for failing to learn the
material, and the material for a course should not be
decided by the students. They are to learn what they
do not know, and this is often what they do not know
even exists.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Barb Knox
2009-04-17 22:12:34 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by pubkeybreaker
The way to motivate students is to make something that they WANT
contigent upon learning the material, [i.e. they get a reward],
combined with a punishment that they truly don't like for their failure.
I tend to agree with Alfie Kohn <http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm>
that a focus on extrinsic rewards and punishments tends to kill off any
intrinsic motivation someone has.
--
---------------------------
| BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk
| B B aa rrr b |
| BBB a a r bbb | Quidquid latine dictum sit,
| B B a a r b b | altum viditur.
| BBB aa a r bbb |
-----------------------------
Rowley
2009-04-17 23:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barb Knox
In article
Post by pubkeybreaker
The way to motivate students is to make something that they WANT
contigent upon learning the material, [i.e. they get a reward],
combined with a punishment that they truly don't like for their failure.
I tend to agree with Alfie Kohn <http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm>
that a focus on extrinsic rewards and punishments tends to kill off any
intrinsic motivation someone has.
That seems to be the case of the work I do and the paycheck I get for
doing it and the taxes I have to pay for earning what I do......

Martin
pubkeybreaker
2009-04-18 22:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barb Knox
In article
Post by pubkeybreaker
The way to motivate students is to make something that they WANT
contigent upon learning the material, [i.e. they get a reward],
combined with a punishment that they truly don't like for their failure.
I tend to agree with Alfie Kohn <http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm>
that a focus on extrinsic rewards and punishments tends to kill off any
intrinsic motivation someone has.
Perhaps. But students who possess an intrinsic motivation
do not need external rewards and punishment. It is only those
who are unmotivated. And after a few weeks of teaching a
class any decent teacher can separate the two groups.

Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
2009-04-18 03:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
Martin
Why we would be the judges, we geniuses in this newsgroup. :þ
Rowley
2009-04-18 14:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
Martin
Why we would be the judges, we geniuses in this newsgroup. :þ
I wouldn't make a good judge.... I tend to look at things from an
engineering POV.

Martin
Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
2009-04-18 19:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowley
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
Martin
Why we would be the judges, we geniuses in this newsgroup.  :þ
I wouldn't make a good judge.... I tend to look at things from an
engineering POV.
Martin
A teacher's performance would be measured by at least two factors:
average improvement of test scores and average performance on year
end assessment. Teachers pay would be determined by in what
percentile their scores place them. Top 25 percentile receive raises,
and the bottom 25 percentile will receive pay cuts and be place on
probation.
Rowley
2009-04-18 22:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Rowley
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession....
How to fix government? increase the pay for good politicians and impeach
the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good cops more and fire the bad
ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers, fix judges, fix automobile
corporations, fix banks, fix health care......
Problem is find someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....
Martin
Why we would be the judges, we geniuses in this newsgroup. :þ
I wouldn't make a good judge.... I tend to look at things from an
engineering POV.
Martin
average improvement of test scores and average performance on year
end assessment. Teachers pay would be determined by in what
percentile their scores place them. Top 25 percentile receive raises,
and the bottom 25 percentile will receive pay cuts and be place on
probation.
Explain "average improvement of test scores"....

Martin
Rowley
2009-04-17 00:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You could use that some philosophy for pretty much any profession /
industry.... How to fix government? increase the pay for good
politicians more and impeach the bad ones.... Fix crime.... pay the good
cops more and fire the bad ones..... fix doctors, fix social workers,
fix judges, fix automobile corporations, fix banks, fix health care......

Problem is finding someone competent at telling the good from the bad.....

Martin
Herman Rubin
2009-04-17 00:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. =A0Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. =A0Rea=
d
Post by Mark S.
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
Who is a good teacher? We can identify the great majority
who do not know their subjects, but can a good teacher get
through to the ones unwilling or unable to learn?

At the college level now, we have "teacher evaluations" by
"students" who think that all they have to do to pass a
course is to show up and regurgitate a fair part of the
lecture material. After all, isn't that what was happening
in high school?

The public schools have given up on meaningful standards.
The current attempts to raise the level may well be doing
a good job of lowering it. At least teach those willing
and able to learn, instead of imprisoning them in classes
from which they cannot find anything they do not already
know, often better than the teacher.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Rowley
2009-04-17 11:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman Rubin
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. =A0Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. =A0Rea=
d
Post by Mark S.
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
Who is a good teacher? We can identify the great majority
who do not know their subjects, but can a good teacher get
through to the ones unwilling or unable to learn?
At the college level now, we have "teacher evaluations" by
"students" who think that all they have to do to pass a
course is to show up and regurgitate a fair part of the
lecture material. After all, isn't that what was happening
in high school?
The public schools have given up on meaningful standards.
The current attempts to raise the level may well be doing
a good job of lowering it. At least teach those willing
and able to learn, instead of imprisoning them in classes
from which they cannot find anything they do not already
know, often better than the teacher.
But isn't there the same problem doing that as there is with
teachers?.... How do you weed out just the students who are "willing
and able to learn" from those that just appear to want/be able to do so?
How do colleges and universities do that?

Martin
Herman Rubin
2009-04-17 17:33:45 UTC
Permalink
................
Post by Rowley
Post by Herman Rubin
Who is a good teacher? We can identify the great majority
who do not know their subjects, but can a good teacher get
through to the ones unwilling or unable to learn?
At the college level now, we have "teacher evaluations" by
"students" who think that all they have to do to pass a
course is to show up and regurgitate a fair part of the
lecture material. After all, isn't that what was happening
in high school?
The public schools have given up on meaningful standards.
The current attempts to raise the level may well be doing
a good job of lowering it. At least teach those willing
and able to learn, instead of imprisoning them in classes
from which they cannot find anything they do not already
know, often better than the teacher.
But isn't there the same problem doing that as there is with
teachers?.... How do you weed out just the students who are "willing
and able to learn" from those that just appear to want/be able to do so?
How do colleges and universities do that?
Martin
We can test students and applicants on how much they know
and what they can do with it. We can even test students
who have been deprived of an education to see if they have
the mental ability to learn what they have not seen and
then proceed. I am not saying that we have perfect tests
for these, but we have at least fair tests.

One could test teachers by what happens to their students
with given abilities and backgrounds; how much and how
well have they learned, and can they use it in the future.
This I would consider a reasonable test of the quality of
a teacher. But to ask students takint the class, who have
not completed the term, and who have no real idea of how
well they have learned the important material, to provide
such an assessment is not very intelligent.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Rowley
2009-04-17 23:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman Rubin
................
Post by Rowley
Post by Herman Rubin
Who is a good teacher? We can identify the great majority
who do not know their subjects, but can a good teacher get
through to the ones unwilling or unable to learn?
At the college level now, we have "teacher evaluations" by
"students" who think that all they have to do to pass a
course is to show up and regurgitate a fair part of the
lecture material. After all, isn't that what was happening
in high school?
The public schools have given up on meaningful standards.
The current attempts to raise the level may well be doing
a good job of lowering it. At least teach those willing
and able to learn, instead of imprisoning them in classes
from which they cannot find anything they do not already
know, often better than the teacher.
But isn't there the same problem doing that as there is with
teachers?.... How do you weed out just the students who are "willing
and able to learn" from those that just appear to want/be able to do so?
How do colleges and universities do that?
Martin
We can test students and applicants on how much they know
and what they can do with it.
Ok... and I imagine that someone can 'learn' the test... such at people
seem to do for other entrance exams.
Post by Herman Rubin
We can even test students
who have been deprived of an education to see if they have
the mental ability to learn what they have not seen and
then proceed.
So you are doing this already? What kind of test is it?
Post by Herman Rubin
I am not saying that we have perfect tests
for these, but we have at least fair tests.
Who will make the tests? And who's idea of 'far' will be used?
Post by Herman Rubin
One could test teachers by what happens to their students
with given abilities and backgrounds; how much and how
well have they learned, and can they use it in the future.
How far in the future? The next day, next week, next month, next year,
couple years later? Wondering also, how teacher turn over would factor
into that....
Post by Herman Rubin
This I would consider a reasonable test of the quality of
a teacher. But to ask students takint the class, who have
not completed the term, and who have no real idea of how
well they have learned the important material, to provide
such an assessment is not very intelligent.
There is a section in the book "Blink: The Power of Thinking Without
Thinking" were the author - Malcolm Gladwell - talks about doing an
evaluation on college instructors in "half a minute". Been awhile since
I read the book....

"In the Blink of an Eye: Estimates of Teacher Effectiveness from a
24-second Thin-Slice of Behavior"
http://www.uwlax.edu/URC/JUR-online/PDF/2006/wiedmann.reineking.pdf

Martin
pubkeybreaker
2009-04-17 11:20:19 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 16, 7:51 pm, "Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession.  Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue.  Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You did not read the article. Lack of pay is not what is
driving teachers away.

"They leave because they're compelled to lower their
standards, water down their curricula, implement asinine
regulations, and contend unsupported with an onslaught of
antisocial, narcissistic behavior bordering on criminality."


Let's give teachers authority to set their OWN curriculum.
Give them authority to flunk students without fear of retribution
from parents or the administration.
Give them authority to bounce students out of class.
Rowley
2009-04-17 11:36:02 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 16, 7:51 pm, "Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking
Post by Reagan loved the rattling sound that his shaking head made.
Post by Mark S.
This week The Irascible Professor presents an article by Poor Elijah
(Peter Berger) on how to remove incompetent teachers from the
profession. Poor Elijah and the IP go toe-to-toe on this issue. Read
Poor Elijah's guest commentary along with the IP's extended response
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-04-15-09.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professorhttp://irascibleprofessor.com
The solution is easy: increase pay for the good teachers and fire the
bad ones.
You did not read the article. Lack of pay is not what is
driving teachers away.
"They leave because they're compelled to lower their
standards, water down their curricula, implement asinine
regulations, and contend unsupported with an onslaught of
antisocial, narcissistic behavior bordering on criminality."
"..an onslaught of antisocial, narcissistic behavior bordering on
criminality..", this is why I left teaching.... this pretty much
describes the Principal I was working for at the time.....

Martin
Let's give teachers authority to set their OWN curriculum.
Give them authority to flunk students without fear of retribution
from parents or the administration.
Give them authority to bounce students out of class.
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